Cross border Payments

Welcome to Bitesize Payments where we discuss their history how they work and of course who does what. 

In today’s episode, we’ll unravel the fascinating world of Cross-Border Payments. With so many payment terms, brand names, and confusing jargon out there, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed. But at its core, cross-border payments are actually a straightforward concept—and we’re here to simplify it for you.

Let’s start with the history of cross-border payments, which stretches all the way back to the time of the Silk Road. Back then, trade flourished across vast distances, and the challenge was figuring out how to exchange value between parties who didn’t know—or necessarily trust—each other.

This led to the creation of what we now call correspondent banking, a system built on a network of trust. Here’s an example:

If I wanted to trade with someone in China but didn’t know or trust them, I’d have a problem. But what if I trusted someone in France, who in turn trusted someone in Prussia, and they trusted the trader in China? This chain of trust created a secure way for value to flow between distant and unfamiliar parties—one of the earliest examples of how cross-border payments worked.

Fast forward to today, and cross-border payments are a cornerstone of global trade and commerce. Yet, the principles of trust and intermediaries remain at their heart.

To help us break this all down, I’m thrilled to be joined by my good friend Susan Hall, a seasoned expert in the field of cross-border payments. Susan has dedicated much of her career to understanding and explaining how these payments work, and I can’t wait to dive into her insights.

Payments Industry Insights

History of Payments

Payment System Explained

Corporate Payments Strategy

Payment Regulations Impact

ISO20022 Standard

Digital Payments Evolution

CBDC Advancements

Cryptocurrency in Payments

Financial Technology Education

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome back to Right Size Payments, where we discuss the history, how they work, and of course, who does what. In today's episode, we're going to discuss cross-border payments, where I'm afraid, as with so much of the payment industry, the terms, the brand names, the terminology only are there to confuse and make things even more difficult to understand than they really should be. In essence, it's a really simple process. concept. It's about sending money from one country in one currency, probably to a different currency in a different country. And kind of that's it. Unfortunately, it is probably the most complex of all the payment types, because it's not just around the payment itself. It's all the things that go ahead of it. And of course, things that go behind it. And because it's cross border, there's also a lot of regulatory terms that we have to adhere to, not just in one country, but in several. Here we go. Today I'm super happy to be joined by my good friend Susan Hall. Welcome Susan.

SPEAKER_00: 1:38

Thank you Paul, it's great to be here.

SPEAKER_01: 1:40

Well, this topic I think is right in your sweet spot, so to speak. Would you be so kind as to introduce yourself a little?

SPEAKER_00: 1:48

Certainly, Paul. I spent many years in the payments industry, providing payment solutions to other banks in the correspondent and in the SIPA space. I'm now at Focalink Mastercard Company in the real-time payments area, looking at account-to-account solutions. So I'm seeing things from a whole other perspective, looking at real-time and batch payments. The movement at the moment is looking at how to link real-time payment platforms worldwide. One of the triggers of G20 proposal and improving cross-border payments. MasterCard is a leading player in domestic switches, so it's obviously an area we're busy with.

SPEAKER_01: 2:28

Indeed so, and I'm sure we'll get into it. It's a very, having been quite a quiet area in many ways for a long time, last couple of years and near future, I think it's going to get super exciting. But let's go back Back a little bit. The history of cross-border payments dates back to the Silk Road and to the Knights Templar, which always sounds very cool and exciting. We've talked about that in different earlier podcasts. But these payments evolved from effectively what we now call correspondent banking, which relies upon a network of trust. So to illustrate, if I want to trade with a trader in China but do not know them or frankly trust them, I have a risk. But I might know somebody in France who trusts somebody in, say, Prussia, who in turn trusts the trader in China. This creates a network of trust for both parties. The need of trading silk and spices across vast distances even necessitated a reliable way to pay and, frankly, be paid. Various methods were used include bartering for goods with gold and jewellery, as we've discussed before, But these commodities had serious values, but had serious issues too. At this time, each step in the network required an intermediary who facilitated the trade and agreed on exchange rates, my gold to your jewelry, etc, etc. Consequently, The longer the trade chain, the higher the cost due to the additional process of fees and agreed upon transaction costs above the actual purchase price. This is typically called correspondent banking. We've been talking more about that perhaps another time. Simply put, cross-border payments are sending funds from a country and a currency to another country and most likely another currency. Effectively, there are two major types here, Susan.

SPEAKER_00: 4:27

There are indeed. So you're talking corporates trying to pay or be paid by their suppliers or their customers, very much like the Silk Road example. We've also got remittances, which are effectively an individual working abroad, sending money home to their family.

SPEAKER_01: 4:46

And so, you know, whether you're sending money to your kids, which I do, I have a son that's in the US, I know all about this side of it too, right? What's it like from a corporate side, though?

SPEAKER_00: 4:59

From a corporate perspective, it's more complicated these days. They're sourcing materials maybe from all sorts of different countries. They need to consider, do they need a banking relationship in the country of their supplier? Do they need to hold currency? What makes sense for them in terms of the flows that they are experiencing?

SPEAKER_01: 5:23

But from an individual's point of view, it's... Relatively straightforward?

SPEAKER_00: 5:29

Yep. From an individual point of view, all of the magic that banks do behind the scenes or in indeed financial fintechs these days, an individual just is making a payment.

SPEAKER_01: 5:44

And then somehow magically through the ether it lands in?

SPEAKER_00: 5:47

Magically it happens, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 5:50

Let's get back to that in a second. I really want to talk in a minute about how all this works. We have the internet now and we don't need to have a friend who knows a friend who knows a friend that can send money. The internet surely knows where everyone is, right? But before we dive down that rabbit hole, let's understand a little bit about how it works. There are a few things to look at. Who are we sending the money to? Do we know who they are? Do we know who you are? Are they bad actors? Are the funds being used to launder money, etc., etc.? And we have KYC, which everyone will know about, know your customer. It's a process used by financial institutions and other regulated companies to verify the identity of their clients. The main objectives of KYC are to prevent, money laundering, fraud, et cetera, and other legal activities. And I guess folks will, of course, know about it. But there's other things as well, isn't there? There's sanctions checking and anti-terrorism and lots of terms that perhaps people outside of this part of the industry won't know so much about.

SPEAKER_00: 7:08

Indeed, you need to be compliant with the legal and regulatory requirements, making sure that you adhere to the laws and regulations prohibiting dealings with sanctioned parties. You've got the prevent terrorist financing to stop the flow of funds that could be used to finance terrorist activities. You've got the anti-money laundering, AML, which refers to a set of laws, regulations and procedures designed to prevent criminals from disguising illegally obtained funds as legitimate income.

SPEAKER_01: 7:41

Now, if you say all of this quickly, it can sound easy, but in fact, it's a pretty tough set of processes and can be extraordinarily time-consuming. Would you like to expand a little bit on that, Susan?

SPEAKER_00: 7:53

It certainly is. And I will say, just as an aside, that I took three years out and went to work for an ESG ratings company. Really interesting business, really relevant for the payments industry. But I came back because I kept having to explain to people what KYC meant, that it really was a thing and it was something that should be paid attention to. So there's a lot of confusion with people about what's AML, what are sanctions, what's KYC, what's due diligence. Is due diligence the same as KYC? Well, it is, but it isn't. And of course, how do all of these things fit in with financial crime? We could do a whole podcast just looking at those individual aspects

SPEAKER_01: 8:35

Indeed. Some of them, though, are quite frightening. And, you know, people brush up against KYC when they can't take money out. The truth of the matter is these processes are pretty much the same everywhere and are extraordinarily time consuming. And outside of our industry, they're kind of not well known anymore. And as you say, it is really a problem for the industry because the people that do know get fed up, as you say, Susan, of explaining why and how it works in the industry. But anyway, let's assume that the corporates and the individual are sending money and the targets, recipients have all cleared these checks so the funds can be sent. Most likely, the funds are going to be transferred and there's going to be an exchange of some kind ie from the dollar to the euro to the rand or what what what have you

SPEAKER_00: 9:34

indeed i mean that could be done at source or it could be done by a target by the target bank the beneficiary bank or indeed by a third party with that comes a trade-off of excess fees and an ease of the processing

SPEAKER_01: 9:50

So let's assume we have the currency side sorted out, which is a big assumption in some cases. Now we're going to sort out moving them. So let's discuss perhaps the best known example, which is, of course, SWIFT from the corporate side. And of course, we do also have people like Western Union for remittances. I'm guessing that everyone here will have heard of SWIFT. Susan, it's one of your... One of your old haunts, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 10:21

I am indeed a Swifty, although at a conference recently I did insult Swift by claiming that... they weren't doing what they should be. It was a mistake, my understanding. SWIFT is an organization owned by its member banks, provides standardized and secure communication platform for banks to transmit information and instruction about financial transactions. Approximately 11,000 banks are members. They operate in 200 countries. And through the use of the BIC, the business identifier code, each bank can be identified and the payment can be rooted to the right place. The banks are in the middle of migrating their cross-border flows from MT to MX, otherwise known as ISO 20022, using, hopefully, the CBPR+, so the cross-border payments and reporting plus guidelines. The MT message, so here we're thinking about an MT103 for a credit transfer, had places for information on where the funds are going to, who pays what fees, the currencies, etc., And of course, confirmation that funds have been received and the appropriate reporting. The plus point of the migration to ISO 20022 is the structure and the enriched data. So it's a proper place for information. This helps not just the processing, but also the sanctions and AML checking and offers banks the opportunity to provide more value-added services to their customers. So thinking there about enhanced reconciliation of invoices. Typically, transactions used to take, say, one to five days, but since the introduction in 2017 by SWIFT of GPI, the global payments innovation, the speed of cross-border payments has greatly increased. with nearly 60% of GPI payments arriving at the beneficiary bank within 30 minutes and almost 100% within one day. And we'll touch maybe later on how that aligns with the G20 goals in this space. The issues... of um the payment getting to the beneficiary often with at with speed are often at the beneficiary bank side the beneficiary bank often has to worry about issues such as balance of payments reporting do they have the right information so although the payments get to the benny bank quickly then they get stuck for a while

SPEAKER_01: 13:01

but there is you know we touched Briefly on the fees and this, you know, this is a big issue because there are new entrants in the market. I'm sure we'll touch upon those in a second. But some of these fees can be pretty high. They can be, you know, 60, 70 dollars for a transaction. Of course, they can be less as well, but it's typically about that. But also, there are FX fees. And these can be pretty steep depending upon the pairs of currencies that we're talking about. But these typically are nowhere near the spot rates. And obviously, this is a way that the institutions can make money. But some of these rates are more like the rates you get when you're in the airport when you go on holiday. And they're pretty much out, aren't they?

UNKNOWN: 13:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 13:53

For a mittens point of view, a consumer, an individual can walk into, say, a Western Union or indeed any other money transfer provider of their choice, and they can request the services of moving their cash to the destination country. Services tend to be quick, but again, you're talking about FX fees and processing fees. Because we're talking about this subject, I did actually look up what the average fee at the moment is in this area. And for those who haven't ever seen it, World Bank has got some great information on remittance fees, the volumes and the values. But currently, the cost of making a remittance is around 6.5% of the value. And if you think about it, it's usually a low value that is being remitted. That is very high. The G20 aim is that it should cost not more than 3% of the value for a$200 remittance by 2030. But I will say, if you look at the World Bank information, you get a really interesting array. So there's one particular bank who I will not name in the US that takes absolutely no spread on the FX. So they earn nothing on the FX. They do have a charge, a$35 charge, regardless of the value. There's another bank in the US, which I also will not name, which takes a 0.6 spread on the FX, but charges no fee. And then in between, you have the various companies such as Wise, Remitly, Ria and so all have a slightly different approach. But in essence, there are fees associated. The only question is how high are those fees and how long will it take for the payment to get there?

SPEAKER_01: 15:49

I think it's also worth saying that we kind of assume that these pairs of currencies are the common ones, but when they get to sort of the more esoteric or exotic or frankly low traffic currencies, you sometimes have to go via a third leg. I did quite a bit of work in Africa and the conversation was always around, well, yeah, I'm going to send it over to New York and they're going to send it back again. So you actually end up with two sets of FXs, two sets of transaction fees for, frankly, the countries who can least perform it, in my opinion. But, sorry, Susan, did you want

SPEAKER_00: 16:34

to? No, I mean, you are correct. There's basically a small number of currencies which are direct. So you've got the major currencies, the minor currencies, and then the exotics. As you say, there's very low volume. which means that they are going usually via the dollar. So by its very nature, there is a loss in terms of the value that comes through to the beneficiary.

SPEAKER_01: 16:58

This used to be, frankly, an extraordinarily slow process. It's now, as you've said with the stats, it's moving a lot more quickly. But by immediate payment standards, it's relatively slow. But then it's doing a lot more work, frankly. The processing fees are substantial compared to other fees in the industry. And of course, there are FX fees, which tends to be poor for individuals. And of course, you know, the corporates with their volumes and their key corridors tend to get better rates, quite frankly. Okay, so we talked a little bit about some of the best known examples, but of course, there are many others out there. They're doing them faster. They're doing them cheaper. Of course, they're picking their sweet spots, of course. We've talked about crypto in episode 15 and of course that respects no boundaries and of course there are risks of getting fans whether that's amount that you sent whether that's more quite frankly or it's less and then how do you get it into the real world so to speak Personally, I've used Wise to send money to the US, and it always amuses me that they come back and say how much I've saved compared to using a high street bank, which makes me feel good in one way, but also it's a little bit sad because I've been working in the industry so long. But, you know, that's individual to individual. And frankly, that is, you know, quick and relatively cheap, in my view.

SPEAKER_00: 18:51

In defense of traditional providers, fintechs are good at meeting that need. But the fun starts when there's a problem with your transaction. How much support would you get from fintechs? Do they have the expertise that banks have in helping you? Banks could have done what the fintechs have done, what Wise has done. It's just banks, unfortunately, possibly decided to hold on to the FX value for themselves. Missed opportunity.

SPEAKER_01: 19:22

I really think that's true, actually. I think that while we haven't gone into the real detail of the corporate side of this, it is extraordinarily complex once you... say, I'm not just moving dollars to euros in two companies. The services that the banks provide to those corporates is really extraordinarily complex. And it's very little about just sending the actual transaction that's important to their clients. And that's not really what these fintechs do at all.

SPEAKER_00: 20:00

No, they do the easy bits. to be honest, the hard lifting is still done by the banks. Now I was at a conference recently and there was a FinTech there talking about how they can do everything better than banks. And you could feel the whole audience, which was made up largely of banks going, yeah, right. everything you are doing is based on the rails and the work that banks has put in place. So yes, the FinTech is answering a specific need, but without that whole infrastructure in place, then... the fintech could not be doing what they're doing. But it has to be a symbiotic relationship. Let fintechs do what makes sense. The customer experience is great in the fintech world. Banks can learn a lot from the fintechs in that respect. But the banks are still necessary to do the heavy lifting in this.

SPEAKER_01: 20:58

As fintechs do, and as new entrants to the market do, they go after the sweet spots. They go after the... frankly, the higher fees and the easiest things to do. Whereas if you were sending, if you were in the CFO of Siemens Europe, then you might have a very different view of whether you use some of these fintechs because the other services that they actually provide. But it is also true to say that whatever, whatever of the complexity There are sweet spots to be had here. There are times that it can be a lot quicker and there can be fees that are a lot lower. And that's kind of what we're seeing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 21:43

I mean, that's very much speaking to the G20 initiative. It looks to address the cost, the speed, the transparency and the accessibility. The Bank for International Settlement provides This Project Nexus is about finding a way of interlinking domestic real-time payments platforms with the whole idea, of course, if you've got cheap on one side, cheap and fast on one side, cheap and fast on the other side, join them together, you've got cheap and fast. Whether that's needed in all cases is a whole other issue and a whole other podcast possibly. But that's the idea. And the nexus idea is that each real-time payment or each country will put in place a gateway. And then to connect to another country, you are just connecting those gateways. Makes things a lot easier. But to be honest, what we're seeing a lot of at the moment is more bilateral connections being put in place. Singapore is particularly leading in this space. even though they are one of the ASEAN 5 who are working on the BIS Nexus project. But to make that concrete, what does a bilateral mean? What we're seeing is, say, somebody from the Philippines is going to Malaysia on holiday. They're standing in a shop and they want to buy a coffee. rather than using their credit card. What they're actually using is their domestic bank app or their wallet that they use at home to scan the QR code that the merchant has. The merchant gets his money in local currency and the bank account or the wallet of that person standing in the shop is debited. So that becomes a whole new version of cross-border One that, let's say, traditionally, when you're talking about corporate, trade-related and remittance, this is almost a third version that's in there, the e-commerce version. And we're seeing a lot more of those bilateral links, which makes sense because there are certain corridors that make sense for a country. But if every country tries to connect on that basis, then the whole thing explodes, which is where Nexus comes in. But maybe Nexus isn't getting the attention it needs at the moment. It's something that we're looking at as MasterCard because we have a real-time payments platform we host or we support in 11 different countries, 12 if you include our batch one. But it is something that is getting a lot of attention. And it makes sense, but still the question of do you really always need it instant? Is near real time good enough? The ECB at the moment is looking at the non-time critical approach. So maybe a half hour is sufficient. Who knows? Maybe too much emphasis on the instant. Regulation. lot more regulation, getting a lot tougher. We're not just talking about payments, money laundering, AI, operational resilience, cybersecurity, you name it. As we talked about earlier, A payment sounds like an easy thing, money from here to there, but there are so many other things surrounding it that are complicated enough when you're talking just domestic, but when you talk about cross-border, looking at two different regulatory environments, two different ways of doing the governance, it makes things an awful lot more complicated. And of course, accessibility, financial inclusion, it is also something that is very important and the G20 is looking to drive down, as mentioned earlier, drive down the cost of workers' remittance, giving those who don't have, let's say, the benefits that others might have, giving them access and giving them more control over their funds. The question is, who's going to pay for this? A

SPEAKER_01: 25:48

couple of things here I think that I'll point out and then perhaps you could comment on. We are seeing these IP corridors, you know, the EBA's RT1 separate inst into TCH in the US, i.e. euro to dollar. They're saying they want to do it. They've got plans to do it, what have you. But that's instant to instant and, quite frankly, two bodies that are very interested in working together for perhaps different reasons. But that's not the complicated bit. There are a lot more complicated currency pairs than the dollar to euro. But there's also the question of the unbanked, which you kind of touched on a little bit, which is where people are using wallets and, you know, on their phones. And this is now not corporate stuff, but this is high volume, esoteric stuff. Is that a bit unfair? Exotic currencies where people, frankly, haven't got bank accounts, but they do have a phone. So there's other ways of doing this that are not so obvious. And it's almost as if you have... extremely simple variations of cross-border and, oh my word, the complicated stuff that goes on the corporate stuff that actually responds in, yes, a transaction, but it's all the before and the afterwards for the corporate, where for the individual, no, it's just about money moving from left to right. I think sometimes we can bundle it all together and it's really not that way around at all.

SPEAKER_00: 27:35

It's not that way around at all, but one has to say with wallets, one has to be concerned about the funds being transferred. You know, somebody doesn't have a bank account, they have money, they go into a shop, they load money onto their wallet, and they can then use that wallet to transfer funds either domestically or abroad. Where has that money come from? that becomes a weak spot in all of the work that banks and other institutions doing, looking at the KYC and the sanctions checking and the AML, all of a sudden, It opens up opportunities for funds to be transferred that maybe are not legitimate, let's say.

SPEAKER_01: 28:22

I think that's exactly right. I mean, we started, we talked a little bit about KYC, but if you don't know who the recipient is, then the bank that's sending it has the problem.

SPEAKER_00: 28:34

Indeed, and that also, if you're connecting real-time payment platforms, that becomes a whole other area of interest because domestically you've got your own standards. Every bank in the country doing domestic payments, they operate according to a known set of rules. In the destination country, say, they operate according to a known set of rules. All of a sudden, you're going from one domestic platform to another domestic platform But you're not operating according to the same rules. And that's why the complexity is not in just connecting these platforms. It is in that whole regulatory and governance space. But it's also in the cultural space. Your cultural expectation is my payment will get to the beneficiary in 10 seconds. But let's say in another country, the standard is 20 seconds. Do you add them up? Does it come 30 seconds? But that's not what you expect because you expect 10 seconds, so on and so forth. It becomes really very complicated. And that's just ignoring the whole money laundering concerns that you have, that domestically you've got under control to a certain extent. But as soon as you go cross-border, you do not.

SPEAKER_01: 29:52

To hop back to the KYC piece again, I think to bring it perhaps into a bit of reality, we in the UK at the moment, I say we, no, you're not in the UK at the moment, but there's an awful lot of talk about scams. And one of the things that perhaps people don't necessarily realize is that once the scam's done, getting the money out into a different environment, a different country, a different currency, is the aim of all these scammers so the issue that we have here is is not um kyc is good or bad it's an intrinsic part of stopping these scammers hurting people it's not just a necessary paperwork on although frankly i felt like it was sometimes when i've been in the estate agent the truth of the matter is there's a lot of things here that we need to adhere to so that Good people don't get scammed.

SPEAKER_00: 30:54

No, I mean, that's correct. And it becomes very complicated. There are the initiatives such as, let's say, the verification of payee that looks to see, or confirmation of payee if you're outside the European Union, looks to see, is the beneficiary known? puts the emphasis on somebody actually making the payment, checking to see whether they've got the advice back and whether the advice is good. So the advice says, this payment's going to Paul Thamala, but actually it's not him. It's Paul Thimbleful or something. It's up to you to not push the button and let the payment go through. That's difficult enough when you're talking domestically. When you get into the cross-border, it becomes a lot more complicated. Real-time payment is basically real-time fraud. The faster the payment, the greater the amount of fraud. Difficult to cope with in one country. As soon as you go over a border, it becomes a lot more complicated still. connecting real-time payment platforms between countries might be great in terms of time, might be great in terms of cost, but it will also be amazing in terms of fraud opportunities.

SPEAKER_01: 32:20

In

SPEAKER_00: 32:21

a negative sense.

SPEAKER_01: 32:22

No, I couldn't agree with you more on that. I think it's... As ever, if you're thinking about things with good eyes and good intentions, you only see the positives. Unfortunately, there are people out there that see it the other way around, and there's a lot of them right now. Are there any other things you want to add, Susan? Because it's a big, big topic, and we've only scratched the surface of that. But are there other things you want to bring up before we close out?

SPEAKER_00: 32:51

Cross-border payments is... an interesting area. It's always been an interesting area. And we always say, oh, now it's really a really interesting time. But I think we've really got to the point of saying, no, no, this time it really is an interesting time. People talk about correspondent banking 2.0. Banks are very much now looking at what makes sense for me to do. The bigger banks, traditionally, they've been the backbone of correspondent banking, but you are seeing them now starting to look as to what makes sense for me to do, depending on my customer base, depending on the flows, depending on which countries their flows are going to. If you've got a high volume of low value payments going into a particular country that has a real-time payments platform, it may sense to plug that into your ecosystem. So banks are very much starting to look at what makes sense in this overall picture. which on the one hand makes it more complicated because you've got to maintain many different variations as opposed to just maintaining your network of correspondent banks. But on the other hand, it offers so many more opportunities for banks to be able to service their customers better. So exciting times.

SPEAKER_01: 34:22

Exciting times, yes, perhaps in the English point of view and in the Chinese way of thinking about exciting times. But I think one of the things that hopefully we've made you aware of is that, if you will, we can talk a lot about payments and transactions, but when it comes to cross-border, it really is the adult and complex version of payments. It really is a lot more complicated than it seems on the surface. And there are rich pickings, and there are lots of regulatory steps to jump through, and they will get more and more, as you said. And, you know, while we in the West may think of it one way, you have to think that's not always true around the world, and other people have very different views on it. how it should work and how it can be afforded. So yes, we've talked a lot from a Western point of view, but it's not always the case. We need to be aware of that. Anyway, as ever, Susan, it's always lovely to spend time with you. Thank you so much indeed. I know you've had a hacking cough and you've managed to cope extraordinarily well with that today. Thank you so much as ever.

SPEAKER_00: 35:40

It's been a great pleasure talking to you, Paul, about payments. What is there more interesting in the world than talking cross-border?

SPEAKER_01: 35:49

I don't know what to say to that. Thank

SPEAKER_00: 35:52

you. That's a wrap.

SPEAKER_01: 36:04

Well, there you go. Cross-border payments. Arguably, the most complicated form of payments that we have. When you think about it, what we're really doing is sending our currency across a border, exchanging it for somebody else's currency in another country for a series of goods or services. And there's a lot of complications there, our rules, your rules, my regulation, your regulation. And of course, these regulations are there for a good reason. We do want to stop money laundering. We do want to stop the scammers. We do want to stop the terrorism support, et cetera, et cetera. So those processes are complicated. And while Susan was talking about the G20 initiative and Whether it's a time dependent thing, does it have to be instant, near instant, or should we take our time thinking about it? Truth of the matter is, whether this is you sending money to your kids, back to your family, or it's a corporate dispersing funds across the whole of the world, it's a pretty complicated world. Cross-border is the most complicated transaction type out there. So guys, if you'd be so kind as to feed the algorithms, tell a friend, let me know what you think. Send me an email at bitesizepayments at gmail.com and I'd love to hear from you. Take care. Thanks so much.